Sense & Sensibility Chapter 22

It's the one you've been waiting for! The first showdown between Elinor and Lucy. Rachel reckons Lucy won this round.

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Transcript

Rachel:  are you ready to rumble?

Frances:  we're not putting that in.

Rachel:  put it at the end. eleanor versus lucy steele, fight.

Frances:  welcome to the amateur austinite. i'm frances duncan, author, austinite, and life coach. my cohost is rachel pillow, book by austinite and all round nurse. hello. today, we're discussing chapter 22 of sense and sensibility, which is a big one, where lucy reveals that she's being secretly engaged to edward, who eleanor was in love with, by the way, for the last four years.

Rachel:  skank. that was harsh. she's not a skank. technically, lucy has done nothing wrong.

Frances:  technically, lucy has done nothing wrong.

Rachel:  there's only one person at fault in this situation, and his name begins with e.

Frances:  he should not have got so familiar with eleanor to make her and everyone around her suspect that he was going to propose to her, but technically, he hasn't done anything.

Rachel:  technically. he has later on a little bit.

Frances:  it's difficult with the family situation, though, where they're living together for six months. yeah. like, how do you keep that distance? although they managed to keep a distance from fanny and john, so it is possible. it's possible.

Rachel:  it is possible to keep distance from family, especially in this time frame. like, in this day and age, just go to bath and don't send a letter. you'll be fine.

Frances:  so the chapter starts off talking about the misdeals and how mary anne's like, fuck right off. so both the misdeals try to become best friends with elinor, especially lucy. and i suspect that lucy has always intended to befriend eleanor. and i don't know if this ever occurs to eleanor that that was the point. lucy has manipulated her way into barton park so so she can get to meet eleanor, who she sees as a rival very obviously. so she can measure her up and be like, no. you're never getting him. i already have.

Rachel:  that's not how i interpreted it the first time i read it. i was just like, oh, lucy has heard edward talk about, these family friends of his, and she wants to get to know them better. she just kind of wants to know more about her mother-in-law. but actually, rereading it when i'm older, he talks about you and the way he talks about you, i know he likes you. and that's why i think lucy tells the secret to eleanor. definitely. the only person she's ever told the secret to is her sister.

Frances:  which was also a stupid idea.

Rachel:  because her sister caught her mouth shut. her sister is so annoying. god, anne steele, i think, is one of the more annoying characters in the book. but it's like, lucy, okay. i understand this is a huge secret to keep. like, i know i would struggle. if i had a secret engagement, god, i'd need to tell someone. otherwise, i'd go crazy. and i understand telling a sister, you know, one of your closest confidants. but in the conversation that happens in the previous chapter, anne is like, oh, yeah. we know him. we're very well acquainted and then lucy's like, shut up. shut up. but then in this chapter, lucy's like, i can stake my claim by sharing the secret with this one person who is totally trustworthy even though i only met her, like, a day or so ago?

Frances:  so i think a little bit more time has passed. it's not clear how much, though. lucy's always trying to appear to advantage in front of eleanor, and eleanor was like, i mean, you seem okay. you're naturally clever, but

Rachel:  she

Frances:  hasn't done anything to cultivate her mind. you stayed with your uncle who was a teacher, which tells me that that either she didn't care enough to learn, which she could have because there were books and stuff, or her uncle saw no value in educating girls and blocked her from doing that?

Rachel:  her powers had received no aid from education. she was ignorant and illiterate. so that means she can't read. and it's like, if you can't read.

Frances:  alliterate doesn't necessarily mean that she can't read, just that she doesn't she doesn't prove her mind by reading. she doesn't read a lot.

Rachel:  okay. that's fair.

Frances:  in this context, that's what it means.

Rachel:  but it is highly likely that she has never been encouraged. there's only so much fault you can place on her for her lack of education. just because you have access to to things doesn't mean my parents had books at home, but there were certain books that it's like, you're not allowed to read those books. and as you get older, you're like, those are forbidden. i'm not allowed to touch those. i've been told my whole life if you're sitting there with a book, you should actually be doing mending or something else or, you know, not educating yourself. you grow up, it's like, well, i shouldn't be doing that because i've been told my whole life i'm not supposed to. and i feel like women in this time definitely had that experience of it wasn't a priority, and actually it was discouraged for them to read. so i think there's only so much we can blame lucy for her naivety. so there is

Frances:  a certain amount of blame to be put on the society that she was raised in.

Rachel:  yeah.

Frances:  eleanor does enjoy occasionally spending time with lucy, but she can see how lucy is with everybody else. insincere, ignorant. she shows attention and deference to people with no basis for it. the way that she fawns on the middletons makes eleanor go, well, i can't believe anything nice you say to my face because i can see your insincerity in the way you are with the middletons. mhmm. yeah. eleanor's not gonna start talking shit about the middletons with lucy either. she's not that sort of person. you think that you're special to someone, and then you see if they treat other people that way, it can kinda devalue it in a way.

Rachel:  you're like, well, actually, what is this person like when i'm not around?

Frances:  well, lucy just wants to be in everyone's good books. yeah. because for her advantage.

Rachel:  mhmm. which, again, i think is slightly understandable who actually wants to be in someone's bad books?

Frances:  true. and she doesn't have a position. she needs to be in people's good books to have places to live and food to eat and stuff. it's never said, but i assume that the steel's parents are dead. so they're just moving from family member to friend of no fixed abode, and it's quite clear they don't really have any money either.

Rachel:  which is so rough. if that's the case, that really sucks for the miss steele's she's in this long term secret engagement, if she was engaged and it was okay. well, you know, i'm gonna be married soon, and then i'll have my own home. like, i'll have somewhere i can live and settle down. but that's not the case for this because their engagement is so long and so secret, so she can't tell anyone about it. she can't go and visit her, fiance's family. she is just in this limbo.

Frances:  they're walking to the cottage, and lucy starts asking about edward's mom. and eleanor's like, that's a weird question. i don't really know her. and won't give her real opinion, it's sensible to be cautious of giving lucy any ammunition. like, if she talks shit about missus farris, she has no idea how that's going to be repeated.

Rachel:  yeah. eleanor is a very smart character, she would talk about her feelings on missus farris to her family and maybe gently to edward it's kinda sad for you that your mother is like this, but she would never say it to another person. lucy fishing here is very interesting it obviously does go to proof that she does know a fair amount about eleanor. she knows that her connection to the ferris' is strong enough both through fanny and edward that she could have met missus ferris before. she hasn't, but it could have been a possibility. and lucy, actually, i think, is quite sly in her bringing it up, her engagement like this.

Frances:  roundabout way. right?

Rachel:  it's a really roundabout way. i mean, it is a really weird way to start. if she was being genuine, i've engaged this guy, but i don't know anything about his mom, i would also kinda be wanting to be like, have you met this person? like, just wondering because, you kind of wanna go into a situation prepared. but i think the way that she then segues she is actually very cunning.

Frances:  the time may come when we may be very intimately connected. it's so weird. it's weird to bring up his mom, and the whole time she's eyeing eleanor. they keep bringing up the way she looks at eleanor so the reader can tell that she's very carefully assessing all of eleanor's reactions. mhmm. and i'm not sure if it's, uh, trying to see if eleanor suspected anything or trying to see how hurt eleanor is. but to start off with, uh, i wanna think she's talking about robert.

Rachel:  which is fair, that's why i feel like edward is a little bit shitty about the situation because she hears lucy talking about an intimate relationship with someone called ferris. eleanor's first thought is, well, it can't be edward because edward likes me and we like each other. we've made no promises. he's definitely shown me he has some sort of thoughts about me. well, of course, i would then assume it would be robert who lucy is engaged with.

Frances:  it's so funny that that's what ends up happening, though. yeah.

Rachel:  it does seem to work with it.

Frances:  and i was like, i don't really want her to be my sister-in-law, but then it does happen. yeah. unlike mary anne, it very clearly says that eleanor is in no danger of a hysterical fit or a swoon.

Rachel:  she's such an emotionally strong character and very mentally strong too. she's finding out this kinda horrifying thing the man i'm in love with is engaged. and i do think it's, important that when she says, oh, how long have you had this engagement? um, if it's a vlog standing, and it's, like, we've engaged these four years. so at least eleanor has the comfort of knowing that he didn't go and propose to her after he'd already met eleanor.

Frances:  because i wonder if it was part of her question for asking. right?

Rachel:  yeah. i think it's 100% if he proposed to lucille after his original time visiting and meeting eleanor, then i would say edward is firmly in the bad books. but because it's as long standing and he hasn't made any promises, because he is still, honoring his obligation to lucy, it's like, you did a sucky thing, but you're not a bad person for it. all people, even good people do the occasional shitty thing. and you know what, edward? this kinda makes it for me.

Frances:  eleanor's intentionally being calm as she talks to lucy, pretending that everything's fine. and i think that actually makes it easier on her.

Rachel:  keep calm and carry on.

Frances:  and not show lucy that she's hurt. like, lucy says, of course, i can trust you. he looks on you and your sisters as his own sisters.

Rachel:  but isn't that also such a cutting dig, seeing as his actual sister is fanny? like, he thinks of you as his own sisters. his sister is a bitch. like, i don't wanna be compared to that. don't put me in a pool with that woman, please.

Frances:  i think it's also lucy putting her in her place. he's not in love with you. he only thinks of you as a sister. he loves me.

Rachel:  mhmm. and i think part of the reason that it's really good that eleanor does stay calm in this situation is i feel like lucy is really trying to get that reaction. it would be very validating to know you've got the guy and that someone else was devastating. it gives her a bit of power because she doesn't have a lot of power over anybody at all. and she can't even rein in her sister from keeping her mouth shut. being able to have this emotional power over eleanor is actually kind of a big thing for lucy she is kind of doing this really mean thing, but she's like, i just need to know that i have caught a good guy and that he is wanted and that, i've done it. i'm succeeding in life by being engaged to this guy.

Frances:  i don't think i'd have so much of a problem with it if she actually gave a shit about edward, but we discover later that she doesn't.

Rachel:  she cares about the money. that sucks, but it is actually good in the end that she does in a roundabout way because it means that, okay, edward doesn't have the money. she goes on to the one who does. i'm actually very surprised when robert is like, yeah. i like you. sure. and they marry because it just seems like, how well do you know robert? he doesn't really know you. i'm surprised. he wants the woman who his brother's been engaged with, but it works out because it it frees up edward to be with eleanor, which is what he wants in the end anyway.

Frances:  it's a huge unexpected plot twist, but that's what plot twists are.

Rachel:  yeah. spoiler warning. sorry. should we've been putting a spoiler warning before every single episode of the podcast just for safety.

Frances:  lucy brings evidence. i have a letter from him. i have a picture of him. he was wearing a ring with my hair in it. did you see that?

Rachel:  mhmm. she's showing her receipts.

Frances:  was he sad when he came to see you he had just been with me? he was sad to leave me.

Rachel:  it is kind of like a look at me, look at me. if they were in love and it was a secret, then he would be sad to have left her. their relationship obviously started with him spending four years with her uncle, and it doesn't say exactly how long she was around for that time, how much she was around, if she was living with them or they were still hopping from people. but it was obviously long enough for them to gain some kind of attachment, because you know that edward wouldn't have proposed if he didn't think he loved her.

Frances:  she was young and pretty and kind to him, and he is not used to women being kind to him. he has his mother and his sister.

Rachel:  yeah. honestly, you can't really fault him for that, for being like, wow, a woman is being nice to me. oh my god. i'm in love.

Frances:  one of the lines that lucy says sounds like it could be something that mary anne would say. i only wonder that i am alive after what i have suffered for edward's sake these last four years.

Rachel:  yeah. that is a very mary anne line. but also, again, kind

Frances:  of fair. she has spent four years suffering in silence. but eleanor did not feel very compassionate, which says to me, lucy's not faking it well. eleanor can see through her. mhmm. yep. she continues to be insincere. maybe we should break it off. do you think that i should do that? looking directly at her.

Rachel:  what do you think i should do, woman who my fiance is in love with, who's in love with him back?

Frances:  what would you do? eleanor would never enter a secret engagement. mhmm. she would not end up in that situation.

Rachel:  she's saying that anne is the only person that knows of it, and she's in constant fear. she doesn't know when to hold her tongue, and she was really worried and i was gonna say something the other day until sir john is the one who mentions edward's name and says it isn't just a ferris, it's edward specifically. and i don't think i had caught that. i think my brain had thought he just said ferris but hadn't mentioned it was edward specifically. it might have been that when the steeles sisters came to barton, that they were just there as acquaintances. it wasn't with the express thing of, like, letting eleanor know. but because sir john gives it away and refers to edward as eleanor's beau, maybe lucy is then, like, oh, i need a second claim. like, maybe it wasn't so premeditated for the visit itself.

Frances:  people are always telling me there is no way that lucy could have manipulated her way into running into missus jennings and sir john and then manipulated her way into being invited to barton, but i think it makes a much more interesting story if she did.

Rachel:  it is a lot more dramatic.

Frances:  i know what i'm doing. i need to get to these people's big fancy house so i can see my fucking rival and put her in her place.

Rachel:  women have done crazier things. and you know what? in the sense and sensibility soap opera, that's exactly how it happens.

Frances:  but you're right. it's possible that she did not have any intention of saying anything until sir john brought up, edward and made it clear that everyone around did think the same sort of thing that lucy was suspecting. we don't know.

Rachel:  if you go to the house of these people who you've met and you're meeting this woman and her family who your fiance has mentioned as being friends with and going to visit, you'd obviously be curious about them. but you might not think anything more of it until everybody there starts talking about your fiance is already being engaged to this other person. wouldn't that be so hurtful? it just sucks. that would be, like, such a blow. and especially because you can't tell anyone. you're probably sitting in that room with everybody, making jokes at eleanor about your fiancee being in love with her, and you can't say anything, oh my god. i'd be dying on the inside. i'd be wanting to scream with rage and not being able to, especially in these circumstances where i have to have some decorum.

Frances:  the fact that lucy doesn't care for edward makes it easier. if she actually cared for edward and he'd just fallen out of love with her and now was in love with eleanor, it would be a different situation. but because she clearly doesn't love him and just wants whatever she can get from him, it makes it a simpler situation. and then edward's not the bad guy, and eleanor's not the bad guy. because lucy's holding this guy to an engagement when she knows he's not into it. so she's the bad guy. but, yeah, had it been different.

Rachel:  even if i didn't love him, if i didn't wanna break off the engagement, and he was still adamant about keeping it even though he's clearly in love with someone else, because he's an honorable man. there's no guarantee that i would find someone else to be in love with. my situation is precarious. i should hold on to this good thing while i have it. like, yeah, i may not love him, but, like, you know

Frances:  it's better to be engaged.

Rachel:  it's better to be engaged, and it will provide her more freedom.

Frances:  but the fact that she's holding him when she knows he's not into it is the

Rachel:  but he could break off the engagement if he wanted to. couldn't he?

Frances:  no. it's really the woman's prerogative to make an engagement.

Rachel:  yeah. he would be seen as much of a worse person for breaking it off than she would. but have they sat down and had that conversation? has he said, i would really appreciate if you would break this engagement?

Frances:  when he loses all the money and it goes to his brother, he talks to her and is like, would you like to be released from this engagement? it's not fair for you because we don't know when we're gonna marry. we definitely don't have any money coming at any point. mhmm. but she's like, no. no. i still love you. la la la. because it's better to keep engaged to a man than not. within four years, surely at some point, it's been, i'm just double checking that you still wanna do this. you do? okay. cool. and then we'll just carry forward.

Rachel:  yeah. that's true.

Frances:  if a man breaks an engagement, he can end up in court.

Rachel:  really? i didn't know that.

Frances:  it's like, um, you know how when people get divorced and if one person's been primary caregiver of the children

Rachel:  you can stop paying alimony

Frances:  because you were supporting them. mhmm. they weren't working outside of the home because they were raising their family.

Rachel:  yeah.

Frances:  it is your responsibility to maintain them.

Rachel:  mhmm. so

Frances:  in this period, getting married was the only way really woman of a certain class, could make money. so it's like i've offered you a job, and now i'm yoinking it off the table. so i have to provide you some compensation. yeah. she could take him to court if he wants to end the engagement. but not only that, edward is an honorable man. he

Rachel:  would do it.

Frances:  not do that. he thinks that lucy is in love with him and is still a good, simple girl. so he wants to go ahead with that even though he knows that he is in love with anna. we don't learn all of this till much later. yeah. that's one of the tricky rules of this society. another tricky rule, which austin outlines very clearly for us thank you, austin. a correspondence between them by letter could subsist only under a positive engagement. basically, nothing else could authorize it. if two single people are writing to each other, that means they're engaged. you do not have private correspondence with somebody. unless you are engaged.

Rachel:  or or, you know,

Frances:  related, etcetera.

Rachel:  yeah. i should stop messaging all my friends just in case.

Frances:  just in case.

Rachel:  just in case.

Frances:  you don't know what trouble you're gonna get into.

Rachel:  i know. god, how many people am i engaged to? shit.

Frances:  this is so awful for eleanor not only during this conversation with lucy does she have to maintain herself, but when they get back to the cottage, the misteels sit with them for a while. in front of her family and the misteels, eleanor still has to pretend that everything's fine until they leave. and then the last bit of the chapter, eleanor was then at liberty to think and be wretched.

Rachel:  oh. which basically means she's probably gonna burst into tears. although, it's not a very eleanor thing, but i think when she was in private, she probably would.

Frances:  she wouldn't do it in front of people like mary anne. she would do privately. this is her emotion to deal with. she doesn't need other people to have to deal with that. um, she has to put up such a front. everything's fine. everything's fine. i'm just gonna go to my room and scream cry into my pillow. mhmm. because my boyfriend's engaged to somebody else. cool. cool. devastating. and this is the end of the first volume.

Rachel:  yeah. this is where it ends.

Frances:  what a place to end it. this book is supposed to be about the dashwood sisters. right? what a place to end the first volume. neither of them have a boyfriend anymore. what the hell is happening?

Rachel:  they're both currently in their heartbreak period. yeah. let's just end the book with both of them having their hearts broken. okay. how long was it between volume one ending and volume two coming out?

Frances:  oh, it's all released at the

Rachel:  same time. released at the same time. i was gonna say, because was it serialized, or was it all just brought out? no? no. okay. no.

Frances:  austen, bought her things out in three volume novels. so the point of that is that you can be reading one part while someone else is reading the next part, and you can swap it. so things like circulating libraries, you could get all three volumes or you could get individual yeah. volumes. so that meant that more people could be reading the same book at the same time yeah. also because publishing, quite expensive. yep. and when you didn't have a lot of other forms of entertainment, well, i mean, you probably did. not that we'd think of.

Rachel:  compared to the amount of ways we can entertain ourselves now?

Frances:  yeah. so that is the first showdown between eleanor and lucy. how do you think that they went?

Rachel:  i hate to say it, but lucy won the fight. she at least won round one.

Frances:  she did hit eleanor pretty hard, but eleanor still got up.

Rachel:  yeah. she hasn't tapped out yet, but she's bleeding heavily. and she got the chair, and she might have one tooth missing.

Frances:  yeah. and that's probably the extent of my sports metaphor.

Rachel:  how would jane austen put it?

Frances:  parry thrust. yeah. maybe we should look up fencing and talk about that. yeah. a hit. we could go through this and be like, and that's a hit and that's a hit. yeah. because there were a lot of those. epic. and that's our discussion of chapter 22 of sense and sensibility by jane austen. i've been frances duncan. this has been rachel powwow. bye. thank you for listening. we wish you happy reading.